Thoughts from the Desk

Listening to the Voices

Monday 8th, February

posted by: David Smith

When you say, “I can’t believe,” what voice are you listening to?
It is a voice of science and reason? You could be saying that God can’t be tested scientifically. No one can prove he exists, therefore I can’t believe. That is true, you can’t. But neither can science rule God out.  In order to disprove God scientifically, you would have to know all the knowledge that there is to know and still find no God.  That’s clearly impossible!
The reality is that you cannot prove or disprove God by science and reason.  Therefore the question of science and reason is irrelevant to the question of God.  And if science and reason are irrelevant to the question of God, why are you listening to that voice?
Or maybe the voice that’s telling you you can’t believe is some Christian memory. Were you treated harshly at a religious school? Rapped over the knuckles with a ruler? Were you hurt at a previous church? Did you get so bored at church that you couldn’t stand the cobwebs in your brain anymore? Or do you just go by the general stereotype that all Christians are crazy?
If you’re listening to that voice, you’re judging God on how well his followers do at following him. And when they fail, they convince you that God isn’t real. Is that a fair call for God? Surely God has to be judged on his own merits.  As it turns out, God is the opposite of every Christian failure!
Maybe the voice we need to listen to is the voice of God, the God who has known us from the beginning of time. When we hear that voice, we’re ignoring the lies and listening to the truth.

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Comments:

Hi DS,

I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on what you might say to someone such as Richard Dawkins about faith. As you may or may not have heard, he was in Adelaide last week for writers week and he’s doing an Australian tour - so there are a bunch of interviews around at the moment - one with George Negus put up yesterday I think. I think his latest book compares evolution deniers (ie creationists) with holocaust deniers - an anlagoy that I think has caused some fairly strong emotional responses ... Although I dislike the way all people of faith are lumped into one category and sweeped wtih a brush of derision and contempt for their (evident) lack of faith in science (!) (hmmm do 1 and 2 Peter apply here?), I do also take his point that some “christian” beliefs have led to very damaging and distorted and unloving actions ...

My thoughts also revolve not so much around what is the case for creation (versus evolution) - but rather looking at how can faith and doubt often do reside somewhat together within us in some shape or form - purely because we DON’T know all the answers. So you can be willing to take hold of faith and belief and trust in God and yet also question, wonder, worry about our faith and it’s truth, worry, question about whether God hears, wonder what to ask God when we pray, feel frustrated that we stuff up and can often behave in the most unchristlike manners ... and despite these seemingly opposite poles, God is still there in the midst of it.

Anyway, thoughts anyone?

PS If anyone is ever in the mood, the comments under threads on the Richard Dawkins website makes for passionate reading (whatever faith based/ non-faith based camp) you fall into.

By melissa on 08 Mar 2010

Wow, great comments Melissa! (You sound like your husband!)
I think that RD’s approach to comparing faith to atheism suits him, because he’s set the ground rules for the debate, namely that science is the adjudicator.  If it can be tested by science it wins.  That’s why creation scientists are going their hardest to show that intelligent design stands up to the rigors of science, because they too are naively playing buy the same rules.
The difficulty is that science says that it’s true if it can be proved, but matters of faith can’t be proved, therefore faith loses if playing by those rules.
My view is that science is excellent at being able to describe and predict the things that it is able to describe and predict, but faith isn’t one of those. And there is plenty of truth that can only be discovered through faith.
We normally think of faith as a matter of opinion and a bit wishy washy, but the Bible talks about it as solid as any other truth. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see (Heb 11:1 NIV)
People live by faith all the time, but so often refuse to acknowledge the truth that comes that way.
Not sure if I’ve answered all your questions, but it was fun answering!

By David Smith on 08 Mar 2010

Found this article on Richard Dawkins by Miriam Cosic , which doesnt give a lot of support to Richard Dawkins from the scientific community itself .
I have scanned form the Paper and used my free OCR software , so there maybe some grammar errors , haven’t crossed the t’s and dotted the i’s

The Australian Mar 2 2010

Article By Miriam Cosic

Science education failing:Dawkins

SCIENCE educators are failing society, even in technologically advanced Western countries, says evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins.

“We do need better education, not just in scientific facts but in scientific ways of thinking , he told The Australian yesterday.

The famous author and militant atheist later told an overflow-ing audience at Adelaide Writers Week that when non-scientists called evolution only a “theory”, they used the noun to mean “a tentative hypothesis”. That is not the way scientists use the word.

“Evolution is a fact’ he said, “a fact in the same sense that we are in the southern hemisphere is a fact.” ‘

Professor Dawkins is in Australia to promote his new book about evolution, The Greatest Show on Earth: the Evidence for Evolution. After Adelaide, he will give lectures in Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney, before giving the keynote address at the Global Atheist Convention in Melbourne on March 13 and 14

The concepts of evolution were still misunderstood, he said.

“Human beings are not like apes, we are not descended from apes,” he told the audience, “We are apes. Humans are closer cousins to chimpanzees than chimpanzees are to gorillas.

Religious belief was usually inherited from parents and could be bundled up with a more biologically useful tendency to obey tribal elders unquestioningly, for example.

“If that’s hardwired, it might make children automatically open to any statement their parents make, which might be a religious statement/’ he said. “And ,a child lias no way of knowing whether it is good advice, like ‘don’t pick up snakes’, or nonsense, like ‘bow to the god of the mountains three times a day”

By JON on 02 Apr 2010

To the webmaster , my article above had a lot more carriage returns in than appears in what I pasted above.I am disappointed in the layout as it reads not as well now.

I remember giving a talk about mp3 players to a user group and the layout of the handout I thought I had given , didnt have any paragraphs at all , all the tables were gone hence it was useless , format is everything when you want to speak to a bit of paper.

Thanks for listening , good to be able to post here :>:)

By JON on 02 Apr 2010

My comment above to the Webmaster should read ” lot less carriage returns ” NOT ” lot more carriage returns “

More clarification on The handout , i gave it in one format , and the receiver printed it out in another format. Profreading is sometimes required to get your message across.

*********************************************************************^

By JON on 02 Apr 2010

Thanks for the article Jon,
It still seems to me that Dawkins is examining faith on the testing bench of science. He may say how else can you assess truth? Jesus says he is the truth and that we should come to him.  Maybe there are other ways of discovering and assessing truth?

Regarding your formatting, it’s hard to tell what you pasted, maybe email it to me?

By David Smith on 06 Apr 2010